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If you had to guess what the number one reason for Christians that attend secular universities to leave their faith what would you guess?
I’m sure that some might guess that it would be liberal teaching. Others would guess that they get into the wrong crowds. And I suppose some could argue that these college students may never have been saved in the first place.
Ken Ham reports that a Christian University professor had the following to say:
After 30 years of ministry on a secular campus I have concluded the number one reason Christians lose their faith is the teaching of evolution as an inarguable fact. The same professors invariably attack the reliability of the Bible – Number One Reason Christians Lose Their Faith at Around the World with AiG’s Ken Ham
Now, I know that some secularists and atheists would be glad for this– the problem is that evolution is not an inarguable fact. Millions of years, go-to-you-via-the-zoo– all this stuff attacks the foundation of a Christian’s faith and the fact is that they are willing to do whatever it takes to state that evolution is incontrovertible, and that if you believe anything else you’re insane.
To them, evolution is their founding story, it justifies their “faith” that there is absolutely no God. The problem is that Christians are not as adamant in their beliefs– they’re willing to accommodate, consider, and even accept evolution and in doing so they tear the roots of Christianity right out from under it.
You see, Christianity rests on Christ coming to die for sinners– to be our sin for us. And the Creation story tells us how man became sinners in the first place and is the first recorded place where there’s a prophecy about the One that would come to save. Without Creation, we don’t know why He came or why we’re sinners. Without Creation, we don’t know what “history” in the Bible we can trust and what we should just consider tall tales.
Creation is foundational to a Christian’s belief– and if that is taken away, it loses a lot of its meaning to many people.
God gave us countless problems to solve. Evolution is only one of these problems. God shapes us in countless ways, and solving these problems is a human destiny.
Reality is God’s outer work. It is our best and most enduring example of ‘what’s it all about.’ Our soul is God’s inner work. It is our best and most enduring pathway to ‘what’s it all mean.’
We do not need to know ‘the roots of sin’ to know that we do not have to be limited by it. God still blesses us with a multitude of examples of sin. Jesus insists that we not limit ourselves with sin, but transcend it. That teaching is valid with or without ‘evolution’ as an explanation for anything.
When God says let there be light, well, go outside and look — see for yourself. When man translates the work of God into human words, it becomes weak and needs endless and circular justification.
When man says let there be light, well just turn on a fluorescent — not as impressive as the sun and stars, is it? That’s how easy it is to tell the work of God, from the words of man.
In my humble opinion, the most compelling reason that we may lose our faith, is that we sense, at a very deep level, just how weak these words of man are, and how they miss the point of spirituality.
I see a huge flaw with that assertion. How many curriculums actually expose the student to evolution enough that it tests their faith? Liberal Arts, Engineering, Accounting, etc. require very little or no biology. Is it only students who take biology who leave their faith?
Obviously you point to a possible problem, but I could see where it could be true. I guess we’d actually have to see data one way or the other to prove the conclusion.
Berlzebub: you may have a flaw in your argument. It may seem to you that logic and statistics can address problems of spirituality. This isn’t the domain of the spirit. A hint to a person may be just as loud as the content of a full biology class.
Oftentimes, I have found that biologists and other scientists that really, really know their stuff are quite spiritual. And pretty awe struck about how it all hangs together too. They may not buy into the creationism stuff, but that does not distance them from God. Only God measures that distance.
The soul really couldn’t care a bit about logic. Neither does yours. You may splut an sputter all day long about how flawed is the logic of another’s spirituality, but at 3AM, when you actually have time to visit these conundrums on your own, you sense the true infinity of it all.
Einstein may have said (but don’t quote me): You can view the world as if nothing is a miracle, OR you can view the world as if everything is a miracle. My vote is the latter.
@ Jim:
Ken Ham said it, not me. He claimed that the teaching of evolution was the cause, but I asked how many students are actually exposed enough to it for it to become an issue. Granted, exposure to things that make people rethink their beliefs could be a big part of the cause, but I think it is more likely there is a more subtle underlying cause to it.
Please don’t tell me what my “soul” does and does not care about. You know virtually nothing about me, except what you may read online. You sput and sputter about spirituality, but I find that to be a word so overused as to be meaningless.
If by “miracle”, you mean some sort of divine interference, then, no. I do not see everything as a miracle. However, if you define miracle as something worthy of observation, awe, and wonder, then yes, I do see everything as a miracle.
The proof to me that evolution is incorect is that they have not been able to prove evolution. they have micro(changeing within the species) but not macro(changing between species). Until not that long ago, i did not care much about evolution one way or the other. but I watched a video of a guy, they call him Dr. Dino and he was a science teacher for many years and now he goes around pointing lies and flaws and contradicting statements in school textbooks. very interesting go check it out. he is very smart and makes alot of things make sense. http://www.drdino.com/
Tom
Min wrote: “I guess we’d actually have to see data one way or the other to prove the conclusion.”
Yes, data would be good. Unfortunately Ken Ham is quoting an anonymous campus minister at an anonymous university. That makes the statement both anecdotal and, IMHO, unreliable.
I do, however, understand Ham’s concern about keeping kids who were raised on a literal interpretation of scripture away from any teaching of evolution, because the first thing they will learn is that they have no clue what the theory of evolution actually entails. More liberal Christians have no such problems with evolution, but the fundamentalist kids leave the faith in droves. But it isn’t because their professors attack Christianity, it’s because the kids learn that all the things AIG spews are blatant misrepresentations. Ask me how I know…
— From MInTheGap: Because of the name of your URL, your URL has been removed. If you have a different URL I’ll gladly replace it.
That logic collapses in the face of reality. The Creation Story merely explains what exists–that humans are less than perfect. Taking away the creation story does not get rid of the fact that humans are less than perfect. If humans are inherently depraved, then Jesus can still die to save us from our sins. The problem is that humans are not inherently depraved to start off with. Not only that, the very plan of salvation is flawed and doesn’t work. THAT is why *I* deconverted.
Another part of your argument falls flat–the part about the promise getting deleted when we cut out the first few chapters of Genesis. The promise was renewed to Noah and Abraham and David. Getting rid of Adam and does not get rid of promises and prophecies of your Saviour.
Nice try…but sorry….you missed the mark…well I *could* lie about why I deconverted but that’s a major reason I deconverted–I consider it wrong to lie about sacred matters so no, I won’t lie about this.
The assertion that exposure to evolution is the number one reason Christians lose their faith I find hard to believe. I must question that. Was there any formal scientific polling? Did you ever actually go out and ask any former Christians? I can honestly say that I left the faith not because of evolution, in fact, it honestly never entered my mind during my deconversion process. What led me to my deconverstion was the Bible it self.
When a supposed loving God would send supposedly frail sinful human beings who cannot help but sin to Hell for simply being human and requiring the bloody spectacle of history and the crusifixion, when the supposed God of the Universe simply could have spoken sin out of existence at the time Lucifer fell and became Satan, to me that is a very cruel being. Before you say that if God could have done that, we would not have had freedom of choice, I ask if the God who supposedly could create the Universe and not simply speak sin out of existence and have human beings with free will not choose sin, then that god is truely less than all powerful. Also, that God who says, if you choose me, you live forever in heaven but if you reject me, you go to Hell for eternity, that is extortion not true freedom of choice. Also, if you or I did what the supposed God of the universe was alleged to have done and with his foreknowledge and knew that man would sin and let him do that and create an eternal train wreck when we could have reasonable stopped it, we would be charged with criminal negligence. Then I can only conclude, the Judeo/Christian God is guilty of Criminal negligence, also note, the law that would make one guilty of criminal negligence has most of it’s origin in the Mosiac and western law. Thus, I can only conclude that the Christian God does not exist. I cannot conclude that any god exists. Or at least, I have seen no evidence.
Steve
I must say that i did enjoy reading your post. I find it very interesting that people do not believe in the one and only God (the Christian God). I must say that i am sorry that you feel that way. However i did want to talk about it. I hope i did not read your post wrong, but this is what i think about what i got out of it. Religion can be defined as a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith. So what you are telling me is that you believe in NO GOD (Atheist). Atheism is a religion by definition. from a study done by Neil Gross, a sociology prof at harvard, and Solon Simmons, a conflict analysis assistant prof at George masson university said that out of all the profs and departments, science had the highest rate of Atheist profs. I think it is reasonable to draw the conclusion that Atheists tend to believe in Science because it seems lodgical to them. That means that you most likely believe in evolution and the big bang that created us all. I am probably not going to change your mind. but i do want you to take a look around and see some of the amazing things that have been created. It doesnt take long to see that everything was not created by random chance as evolution states. I would also like to see one instance of MACROevolution ever proven in a scientific test. That would be very interesting to see. I think i like what the bible has to say because i see to many flaws in the evolution theory, and i can not find it factual.
Tom,
It’s the holidays, so I doubt many will respond to you soon, but here goes my take.
I find it very interesting that you do not believe in the various other options available to you. However, that is beside the point.
Saying that atheism is a religion is like saying not collecting stamps is a hobby. By definition, atheism is not a religion.
religion:
1 a: the state of a religious b: (1): the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2): commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
Of course you aren’t going to prove evolution in a “test”. However, there have been several examples of supporting evidence. (See here, here, here, and here.) And please tell me what flaws evolution has?
You’re right, that your argument doesn’t convince me, or most other atheists. Not a single argument that you’ve given is anything that I haven’t heard before.
Oh, and I would also like to see God proven in a scientific test. That would be very interesting to see.
My religion is Christianity, I believe that Jesus Christ is my personal Lord and Savior. He has always been there for me and i have no doubt that he will be there for me in the future.
Your next point stated that the definition of atheism is that it is not a religion. If you believe that with all your heart and mind, you are in fact involved in a religion.
Main Entry: re·li·gion
Pronunciation: \ri-ˈli-jən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back — more at rely
Date: 13th century
1 a: the state of a religious b (1): the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2): commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
— re·li·gion·less adjective
That is directly from the webster website. You can tell me that you dont have a religion all you want, but your Believe that there is not a God is in fact a belief that you hold to be true. therefore, you are in a religion. Even is you hold the belief that there is nothing past earth, you still believe in something. and that my friend as defined by the fourth entry on the webster dictionary as a religion.
I know that macro evolution cant be proven, and God can not be scientifically proven either. That just means as much as you want to disprove God, you cant because you actualy have nothing solid to back your arguement.
Check this website out, it kinda makes the story simple. http://thelordsmountain.wordpress.com/2007/06/21/the-genesis-of-science-the-big-bang-beginning/
If you believe that everything happend just by chance all at the same time, you are crazy. I dont see how it all happend like evolution says it did just by chance.
I can not prove God. I wish i could but i cant. All i have to go on is faith. so if you can prove your belief, and i cant prove mine, what makes me feel that mine is correct. I think that throughout history, the bible has been pretty acurate. Actually it has not been proven wrong yet. go to http://100prophecies.org/ . it has a nice list of fullfilled prophecies.
I really enjoy debating about this with you. You may email me, [email protected] if you wish to do so and we can talk more and i wont feel guilty bout filling up the page. lol.
Tom,
I don’t think you read my post closely. My point was that when I left Christianity, the concept of evolution was not even on my mind. I just wanted to dispell that notion right at the start. I left because of what I read in the Bible. The god portrayed in the Bible is a sadistic, cruel, hate filled being. The closest I can compare the personality of the Bible god is that of a spoiled child with arrested developement and one in which I would never want to be associated with.
When I read in the old testament of the times from places like the books of Numbers, the book of Joshua, and all through the places where the Bible god told the children of Isreal to go and kill every man woman and child. Ah..there is a word for that…GENOCIDE. In the New Testament, a cruel God who would require the cruel death of His supposed SON. To me any god who could hold the universe together by his mere words and create man and yet tell the frail human race that they must accept him or go to hell….that is not a choice…that is extortion. That is even more cruel than something the Mafia might give a person. IF such a god is truely all powerful, and, for the sake of arguement, events took place before the earth was where Lucifer fell and becaome satan and he did take 1/3rd of the angels of Heaven with him, then…the question is WHY NOT SIMPLY SPEAK SIN OUT OF EXISTENCE? Also, why put Job through what he went through…but seemingly a cruel form of amusement for such a cruel God and his nemisis? It also leads to the question of, why would such a cruel God allow suffering of so many people. DO NOT USE SIN….IF such a God is real, and will not simply take the sin away by speaking it away…he is less than all powerful and if you say there would be no freedom of choice…I say BULL…then the Bible God is a myth and an excuse because IF he would be real, he could take away sin by speaking it away and by not, he has thus been proven a cruel, sadistic, being who takes pleasure in the suffering of man. I repeat again from my first post. In most western countries where there is the Judeo/Christian foundation of law, and you happen to see a train wreck, much as supposedly the Bible god did see though foreknowledge with man rejecting him and Satan and the angels of heaven and did nothing to stop such a train wreck, there is a term for that in law. It is called CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE. Basically, if you see a crime about to happen and there is a reasonable possibility within your power to stop it and do not…that is criminal negligence. Thus, the God of the Bible who would allow Sin to happen and do nothing to stop it beforehand is criminally negligent and what is worse, he punishes man for his failure. I want NO PART with a crule sadistic being like that. I don’t mean to sound angry, but that is the way the Bible hit me when I examined the nature of the god of the Bible. I mean no offense toward anyone on here who is a Christian.
I’m so confused. What is meant exactly by the term “lose their faith?” That these students stopped believing in the sacrifice that Jesus made for the sins of the world? Or that they once were saved by grace and now they are not? Did they lose their salvation or did they never have it? Did they misplace their faith the way I misplace my car keys? Could they suddenly find it again? What happens if they die while this “faith” that they once had is lost?
As I said, I’m confused by the terminology here. I’m not being sarcastic, but sincerely trying to understand.
I think evolution is only one component of thinking one’s way to de-conversion. I, myself, tried desperately to make scientific facts fit my certainty of the creation story. While studying the Bible through books and classroom, I realized the many inconsistencies that precluded taking the book literally. It is honest study of the book solely for personal edification, not to further a vested interest in a religious career or a comfortable belief system, that opens the eyes.Besides internal conflicts and mistakes, the Bible is at odds with history, science and observable reality. How long did True Christians think the world was flat? How long did they think it was their duty to torture and kill “heretics?” How long did they attribute mental illness to “demons?” How long will they hang on to Creationism?Besides the errors that became apparent in the Bible, I saw life in my congregation proceed as normal random events, with prayer having no effect whatsoever. People get sick, they get well or they die. People get jobs, lose jobs, etc. How long has the religious world been praying for peace? Any results yet? That’s what I thought.When told up front that this book is the inerrant Word of God and you accept it, then you filter everything you know to fit that holy book. If you approached the Bible as you would study the Koran you could be more objective. After all, the Koran represents a false religion, while yours is the only true one. The only proof for that is that the Bible declares itself to be the only true word. The Bible all by itself, when looked at as a whole and not selectively read, will de-convert any thinking and honest person. It is hard to give up a long held belief, but facts are facts and eventually we must deal with reality.
I’ll try to answer your question, Lori. There are two parts to it.One, some people temporarily “lose their faith” when something happens to them and they blame God. They are still believers, because they blame the God they had faith in and he let them down.Two, others de-convert when they realize that to stay in the faith they must abandon rational thought and deny reality. Usually this isn’t brought about by a crisis in their life, but by discovering that the Bible is not inerrant by any means. Most historical and natural explanations in the book are not corroborated by any outside source, and much Bible information is refuted by independent historians and scientists.Hope that helps you understand.
Evolution didn’t play one part of my deconversion from christianity. The lies of the bible did.
I lost my faith because Christians are such hateful people. I only went to Christian college, and I attended all the institutes conferences on creation. I even went to see Ham when he was still associated with the Morris’.But sooner or later, I began to question whether people could really live holy, loving lives as demanded by the teaching of Jesus. I noticed that the Christians I associated with (and I was a youth minister) spent most of their time beating up everyone else and living as hatefully as possible.So I began to ask whether the blood of Christ really had all the power they said it did. If they were powerless and so scared of everyone else that they always had to be attacking others instead of living their own pure life….then the blood must have no power.If the blood doesn’t have any power to change, then it never changed me.If I am not changed, then I have been duped by a system built on fear and hatred.I do not want to hate nor fear…so now I am a pagan.And it all started at a fundamentalist church. Go figure.
“the problem is that evolution is not an inarguable fact”
I disagree with your opinion. And it’s clear that you are not qualified to have any opinion at all.
“for the things of the Spirit of God require spiritual discernment and are quite foolish to those who are perishing”. The filter by which God the Father permits us to know or understand him is from the inside – out and not from the outside – in, i.e., the limitations of the five physical senses; although, given to us to understand and explore our physical world but unable to comprehend that world which is not seen. This ‘enablement’ is freely available to those who actually believe on Him who the Father has sent (the Christ).
God chooses whom he will save as I chose the friends I keep and he, God, was under no obligation to chose anyone because of sin. For scientific proof of sin, leave your car unlocked and the keys in it – my hypothesis is that it will be stolen and that experiment can he duplicated again and again. The ? is, why do people steal stuff? Ans = Sin.
God gave me the gracious and free gift of faith that enables me, a natural God hater, to believe he is. I received a new nature and that new Spirit nature is tuned to radio God. With some training I hear better every day. I realise this; I cannot believe in creation, or the truth of the Crucifixion without the measure of ‘faith’ that my Heavenly father dished out to me, in the first place. Therefore, trying to understand God with a sinful nature and a mind tuned to God’s adversary won’t cut it. I see the responces of those folks who have adjusted their antenna to radio Satan and the result is: they just can’t help either – not being able to believe in the Lord or they hate Him and usually, with a strange passion. That’s ok, but try seeking him out, he wants to be found by you. Sorry I rambled on, but it’s late here. “Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be flung open for you”.
As a biologist with advanced degrees in the field from a state university, I’m inclined to agree with Jim Hinds. Science is not the root cause of this problem.
I tend to believe our root cause is the numbing of our culture’s sensitivity to immorality. If it feels good do it. Don’t let “the man” (insert Church, Jesus, Mom, Dad, random authority figure, etc. in there for the man) tell you what to do. That’s not to say that there aren’t people out there in our school systems actively trying to teach our children at ages 12-16 that athiesm, immorality, and incivility are the norm in our country and those of us who think otherwise are throwbacks or worse. There are those people out there.
My daugter has a teacher like that this year (she is 16). Some of the things this public employee spits out are just downright inciteful. He focuses his diatribe on her and even belittles her to the class because she stands up for her Christian beliefs in debates. Some of the anti-Christian “research assignments” he sends home for just her to do are just Amazing.
Bad Christian behavior is the #1 reason people loose their faith -Does the excuse “I’m not perfect but I’m forgiven” give Christians the right to treat people badly?
I was brought up a Christian and attended church with my family. I started working with some Christians and trusted them.
They started to scheming and being deceptive in order to get what they wanted, justifying it the guise of ‘just doing business’. At first I prayed for help and strength to endure working with them, after a long time I finally decided to stand up to them, but by then it was too late. Again more lies and more praying – I started thinking that my prayers weren’t answered but she was asking for forgiveness and getting away with everything and I was being punished, maybe I wasn’t praying hard enough? The consequences of their actions were hurting me, my family and others and there was no remorse on their part.
I started to read about forgiveness and then I got mad because in the bible it’s not your works or actions that count, it’s your faith that will ‘save you,’ so no matter how much damage they did to others they can still go to heaven, even if they don’t repent or make up for their actions.
I decided then that I didn’t want to be anywhere where they went for eternity.
I started looking deeper into my beliefs, and now because of their being ‘witness to Christ’s’ ways, we are now atheists and know we need to believe in ourselves and doing right to people here on earth and not worry about after we are dead and buried.
They can go on believing their bad behavior ‘that never happened – it’s been forgiven’ while they continue to their conniving, deceitful, immoral ways – still hurting other people.
Now we are happily atheist, and they go to church every week to sing in the choir and gossip and look good to their ‘church family.’