by 
What makes a man a man? I would propose that it is a complex mixture that includes who he has to be and what he has been trained that determines just who that man is. Unfortunately, both of these things have changed.
It used to be that the man was considered the primary breadwinner. He went out to do the work and bring home the money to provide for the family. He was the one that was supposed to know how to fix things that were broken. He was the person looked to for strength, support, and for teaching young boys to follow in his footsteps. He was the leader, the lover, the protector, and the friend. There are songs dedicated to “Daddy’s Hand” being soft and gentle and yet tough as steel.
However, feminism has had an impact on this man. First, feminism took away the man’s requirement to provide. Women are now capable of holding a job– and getting perks that men cannot get. They get time off for having a baby with a guarantee of having their job back after six weeks of absence. They get flexible hours or part-time hours while men do not. They push for equal pay, through all of these things. They have placed restrictions on workplace conduct and talk. They push the envelope on what they can wear, and should a man have a problem with it– it’s his problem.
Women feel they can be self-supportive. They can have Flexible Spending plans for daycare. They can have their children, their house, and their friends. They don’t need men– and don’t believe that men haven’t taken notice. Men know they don’t have to marry because they can get physical pleasure or companionship without the price of commitment.
Joe Callender, 47, a retired New York City corrections officer, has had four children with two different women he has lived with but not married, because (he says) he doubts his own capacity to be faithful. “Marriage, that’s sacred to me,” he says.
Tom Ryan is an electronic specialist who spent years touring with a rock band. He touts traumatic fears of divorce as a reason for his middle-aged celibacy. After living with a girlfriend for six years, and buying a house with her, he had to suddenly come up with the cash to buy out her share of the house after the breakup. His girlfriend, who had lived with him for six years, had wanted to get married and have children. He loved her, he says, but he “did not feel ready.” He still holds out that marriage and/or children is not “totally out of the question.” Mr. Ryan is 54 years old.
I believe the saying goes: Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free? Men don’t need to marry, and they don’t feel that they have to support a wife and children because women are constantly saying that they don’t need men.
Women first got into the workforce when the men were overseas, and they didn’t want to leave. They believed that they could have it all: work, family, children, etc., and what they’re now realizing is that they may try to have it all, but some feel unfulfilled.
Second, men are also being trained that women are peers and equal– marriage being a 50-50 partnership. The Bible says that God made the man to be the leader of the home, and the wife to submit to his authority. In our current culture, in order to achieve equality, women are being forced to be educated in things that do not benefit the marriage (in fact they can even work against the marriage) by people that say they care for them the most– their parents.
I have seen many parents use the excuse “Well if you don’t get married…” or “if he leaves you/dies…” then you have to have a college education. And this college education isn’t in things that would build the marriage– like how to be a good wife/mother/etc. It’s how to have a business. It’s toward a profession. I once asked a friend of mine in college what she would do if her husband wanted her to not work, homeschool, or something. And she said that she’d be willing to follow his lead. I remarked something about spending eight semesters getting a degree she wouldn’t necessarily need.
Just this past week, an article on Forbes.com advised men to stay away from professional woman. You get a flavor of it with how it begins:
A word of advice. Marry pretty women or ugly ones. Short ones or tall ones. Blondes or brunettes. Just, whatever you do, don’t marry a woman with a career.
Why? Because if many social scientists are to be believed, you run a higher risk of having a rocky marriage. While everyone knows that marriage can be stressful, recent studies have found professional women are more likely to get divorced, more likely to cheat, less likely to have children, and, if they do have kids, they are more likely to be unhappy about it. A recent study in Social Forces, a research journal, found that women–even those with a “feminist” outlook–are happier when their husband is the primary breadwinner.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying I want weak women. What I want is a complimentary couple that gets the most out of the differences that men and women have and serves God best. A family that can impact the world needs to have its members of it functioning in the best way they can. They need a leader/provider husband that knows his roles and fills them. They need a loving/supportive wife that’s able to fill in their gaps and compliment them. They need children that honor and obey their parents and are examples for those around them.
I just don’t think that our current cultural norms are accomplishing what is truly best.
MInTheGap, this was an EXCELLENT post. Well hought out, well written, clear, decisive, and succinct.(gee how do you spell that?)
I totally agree, I have a degree in Psychology, and a minor in Forensic Science. I will never use them. What a waste of 100K dollars! I hope that my daughters do not attend college and if they choose to that they go to a Christian school and major in Motherhood or Home Economics or whatever they call it these days. (Yes there ARE degrees for this!) I’m not too sure how mu husband feels about it though!
My brother is interested in a woman who not only has been cultivating her career for 15 years, but is 8 years older than himself, and makes more money. She has never been married… is there any question as to why? Not in my mind… i keep warning him that he doesn’t want to marry a working woman… that her history has shown what her priorities are… I hope that he doesn’t choose to marry her, especially since his expectations of a wife are much more traditional…
Peace,
Mrs. Meg Logan
Shari,
I wasn’t worried about learning to read. I mean sheesh, I am all for high school and stuff… but college is prep for a career, which i do not believe is necessary for the Christian woman.
Christian women should marry, have children and raise them up in the admonition of the Lord, not waste their time sowing into a college education, and then not using it. I do not believe a woman would need to use her college degree if she were to remain faithfully married to a good Christian man as the Word suggests she ought.
Furthermore, education in general is overrated. It has become an idol in our society. A way to show how smart you are, or a way to “guarantee” success… but the truth is only GOD guarantees success… my father for instance does not have a college degree and makes over 100K a year. I think extended education is being peddled to people who really don’t need it as a trophy of sorts. Shall we all bow down and worship college degrees? “The beginning of all knowledge comes from the fear of the Lord” Proverbs, somwhere…
I am quite surprised that you took my statement to be as vile as the Taliban, and as drastic as their requirements. I am not against women being smart, or taught to read and write, and add and subtract. Obviously the woman in Proverbs 31 was able to do these things with ease, and had a good head on her shoulders as she bought and sold not only land but her wares…
I think it is you who is swayed by the world as opposed to myself. The world wants women to abandon their home and the family for the “professional” career… That is encouraged by sending woemn to college to get degrees in business, or in my case Psychology, or Forensic Science. The only thing I can do with those degrees is have a career… which would take me away from my family (“women love your children” “be submitted to your own husband” Titus 2), out of my home (“women be keepers at home” Titus 2), and render me unable to teach my children dilligently, day and night, when we rise up and when we go out and when we come in and when we walk and when we lay down at night as commanded somewhere in Deuteronomy.
Please pray about your opinion, and also know I am not offended…
Peace be with you
Mrs. Meg Logan
I loved this post, once again, great job MInTheGap!
Correct me if I’m wrong, but you’re not saying that college is wrong in every case, are you? I agree with the problems you pose, and also Bethanie’s post about Ladies and College.
The question is, what is a woman to do if marriage/family is not God’s will for her? She could remain at her parent’s home beyond spinsterhood longing for husband and children, or she could go out into the world with God as her husband (seeking only His will)…maybe to be a missionary or to minister to women, like Nancy Leigh DeMoss does (single Christian speaker/author of Lies Women Believe).
The problem is, a woman doesn’t know if husband/family is in her future. If they are, and in the meantime she goes for a great career, then yes, the adjustment to being a sahm could be much harder. Or maybe you’re assuming a Christian woman would be called one way or the other: to be single and in ministry, or, to pursue domestic talents until the right man shows up.
I agree that most men want a wife that can understand where they are coming from intellectually. I also agree that you can be very educated without a college education.
So those of us raising daughters need to cover their future heavily with prayer. And I’m curious as to what further education you’d promote to your daughter (if you end up having one) if no husband showed up immediately on the 18 year-old’s horizon?
:O)
Not every woman is meant to be a mother and homemaker. That’s why some women can’t even have children! A woman is not wrong for wanting a career and her own life. Every one is different. IF a woman has a husband and family then yes, they are her responsibilities, but whether or not she’s even meant to marry and have kids is up to her and God.
i couldn’t agree more
I’m not saying college is wrong in every case. What I am trying to say is that we need to figure out what truly is best for our kids. If we’re sending them to college because “that’s the thing to do” then are we really doing our best by them? And what are they studying? Is it something to compliment a family or compete with the family?
I believe I can make this general statement about how guys feel towards a prospective wife: Guys want complimenters rather than competitors. I believe that when a guy ceases to feel like he’s the one providing for the family then part of him is hurt.
I believe that if more men were providing adequately for thier families then so many women wouldn’t be out there doing THIER job…Now I know there are men out there who love God and are looking for that God-fearing woman. She’s out there! Maybe she’s just taking care of her family the only way she knows how UNTIL God sends that man! She wants to take care of her family, but all of us don’t have husbands. Some of us have had them and they’ve left us. Some of us have to work to earn a living FOR our children. We (moms) are all they have.
Women who want to be stay at home moms and raise a family ARE NOT WRONG. But that is NOT God’s will for EVERY woman. Those that do stay at home should not cast stones at those who don’t. No one knows God’s will for them except THEM. Some women are supposed to be stay at home moms and some are not. What if Joyce Meyer listened to every telling her she should be a stay at home mom? God talked TO HER ABOUT HER. No one can tell me what God’s will is for my life. No one.
Rachel,
I personally think that as women have usurped the male’s role, men have backed down, and decided not to do it themselves. That is not an excuse for them but neither is it an excuse for women to decide to do their jobs. Not to mention many men these days have been raised by feminist mothers who taught them that they are second class citizens, and that they have no responsiblity to anyone but themselves. (Just as women were taught that they can do everything a man can and better, and that they have no responsibility to anyone but themselves.)…
I would love to see some scripture that supports women not marrying. I have not read any myself that I am aware of and if someone would just point it out to me, I may change my opinon. But as my opinion is justified by the Word of God I am unwilling to waver in the least.
In Titus 2 it tells the old women to teach the young women to be “sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good obedient to their own husband…”
I have yet to see a scripture that says, “teach the young women to be prepared to be loners for God, serving Him without a head (husband), and providing for themselves.”
Now I agree in todays worldly culture it would seem absurd for a woman to stay home with her father or brothers if she is over 21 and not married… but no where in scripture (that i know of) is a woman sent out into the world to provide for herself, and “do God’s will” without a husband.
You point out that many women are unable to bear children. This is true, and it is God who opens and closes the womb. He decides who has babies and who doesn’t. But he created women for men, “But I would have ye know that the head of every man is Christ and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God.” (1 Cor 11:3).. and furthermore, “Neither was the man created for the woman but the woman created for the man” (1 Cor. 11:9). A woman was from the very beginning meant to be a helper to the man, a meet helper, or good, excellent, or perfect helper to the man. She is the weaker vessel according to Paul (and GOD), and is in need of protection, this protection is offered over her in first the form of her father, and then (if she marries) her husband, if she does not marry and her father dies, she would be given covering by her brother, if she has no brother, then by the church… (especially in the case of a widow over the age of 60, yes the Word specifies age here, under that they are to remarry).
I do not consider Joyce meyer, or whom ever it was who wrote the book “Lies Women Believe” to be scriptural ideals or mandates. I am not passing judgement on Joyce Meyer, or the other lady, because I do not know if the first is submitting to her husband in her “ministry” and I know nothing of the second. I can only say that there is no example of this sort of situation that I know of in the Word. I am waiting eagerly to be proven wrong…
Shari, You say “She could remain at her parent’s home beyond spinsterhood longing for husband and children, or she could go out into the world with God as her husband (seeking only His will), maybe to be a missionary or to minister to women”
Firstly, If a woman is not given a husband she still has a family, and a headship, in her father first and then her brothers… I do not think that she ought to remain at home LONGING for a husband… if it is not God’s will for her to have a husband, then it is His will for her to serve her father in his house. She, being a godly woman, should be at peace with this ministry, instead of seeking “Grander” things off alone outside of his covering.
Secondly, I would love to see some scripture where a woman calls Jesus her husband, her only husband.
Now ladies we must all remember that we live in evil times, and that the devil is attacking the family more adamantly than before. That we live in times where the world’s ways seem very appealing, especially to women. But the way of the world leads only to death.
And please know I am in NO WAY implying that women are LESS than men, or worth less than a man. Without women there would not be more men. God in His wisdom created us both in His image, and called us equal in value, but different in design and purpose.
Mrs. Meg Logan
-Anti-Feminist
Like a house of cards, we are reaping the results of what we have done to marriage over time. We as a nation believed that we could make the sexes equal and that would end a lot of problems that we were seeing or thought we were seeing. We believed that it would allow women to leave an oppressor that was depicted before us. Women that were like June Cleaver were said to be disheartened, and the concept of the grass being greener at a out-of-the-home job was something that was too great to be overcome. The war created the need, Hollywood glamorized it, and before we knew it, women were told that they were wrong for not wanting to have it all: a career and a family.
The problem was that feminism didn’t have a correct understanding of human nature, in particular female human nature. Some women that had the longing for a career believed that all women must be like them, and they fought long and hard for voting, for careers, education, etc. only to find that after they had achieved all of these things, women would leave the workforce to have children and raise a family– and those that didn’t would have a case of envy about those that did.
Feminists also believed that equality of men and women in all areas would make the relationship stronger. They did not take into account what the newfound education and means would do to those relationships. It made it longer to get into one, and quicker to get out of one. Men learned quickly that instead of a woman being faithful because she had to depend on him, she was now able to provide for herself. This means that he was no longer the leader, but a suggester of the plans they should follow– perhaps a partner.
By taking away the responsibility of men to be the primary provider, feminism made it less advantageous for men to marry. I know, sounds absurd, but men get a great sense of unity and family by knowing he is providing and protecting his family, but if he’s not able to do that– he’s certainly not able to bear children– he may feel worthless. I’m not sure too many men step up to the plate believing that they aren’t needed or wanted– that they are just an accessory.
In some cases men leave because it’s considered the thing to do– they are no longer instructed to care for the woman– she’s independant. See how we got here.
I understand that in some cases a woman may need support financially. The church was charged for caring for her and offspring as well as her family. Feminism has succeeded in turning partners against each other and against their parents. As they continue to push in this way, who/what will be the next victim?
Very well said MInTheGap…
I have been wanting to write a post on anti feminism for some time now but have been unable to be clear and concise in my theory of how we got here… you did it for me, and I ought to ask YOU to guest blog on my blog an article about feminism.
Mrs Meg Logan
Wow, this is a hot topic! *Sound of bacon sizzling in the backgroud*
Here are a few more thoughts on women/marriage:
*Yes, if we let Satan’s deception color our perception of womanhood, then we’ll all be building our houses on sinking sand. Eve, the very first woman, gave into deception and lied about it. We women are very susceptible, sometimes vulnerable and will take the reins and run with them if we feel we know best. If we’re to gain ground after so many decades of feminism, we’ve got to examine things closely. Yes, even books in the Christian book store, and even popular TV preachers. I’m pretty careful in what I recommend. (Go get DeMoss’s book, Lies Women Believe) :OD
*God promises to give us everything we need, and if He knows a husband will help us bring greater glory to Him, then He will provide a husband. When I (not Shari) referred to being the bride of Christ, I was making a blanket statement. Single or otherwise, any Christian is the bride of Christ. I think singles treat Him more like a husband than some marrieds! Off the top of my head, the only verse I can think of about staying unmarried is 1 Cor. 7-8-9, Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
*Having unfulfilled longings isn’t a sin. It becomes a sin when these unfulfilled longings take over, and you act upon them. If I were still single, I would have a hard time with it. God created within me a desire to be married and to have children. He would understand this unfulfilled longing, and my job would be to praise Him and live on!
Since I brought up Nancy Leigh DeMoss, I will say that she is staunchly supportive of marriage and submission…she even talks in her book how women have “demasculatized/demotivated men by our quickness to take the reins rather than waiting on the Lord to move men to action”
Problems like Feminism don’t spring up overnight–they build up one on top of another till we’re reeling and wondering what TRUTH really looks like. I love spirited discussions such as this…peeling back those layers and getting at the heart.
Should women be able to vote? Ride a bicycle? Wear pants? May the fun begin! ;O)
MIn, you are absolutely right. There are times when I would just love to be a full-time mom.
Everything has gotten soo expensive that two incomes are necessary unless the husband is doctor, lawyer, computer guru, etc.
We truly do not have a choice in our family.
I don’t mean to be rude Leticia, but in my family, my husband makes less than 40K a year and we have two kids on one income. He is not a guru, neither is he a lawyer, doctor or otherwise. It is ENTIRELY possible to live on one income. It is a matter of choices. We have even lived on less, as little as 18K ayear. It isn’t fun, but it is possible.
If you really want to come home to take care of your kids, you can find a way… if you want to hear how, send me a note at my website, and I would love to share with you how to get a handle on finances and frugality, so that you could stay home with those lovely children you say you would love to be home with.
Mary, sorry I got your name wrong, I think your avatar is the same as someone else’s. My bad. I may see if that book is in the library, I am not against looking at it.
With regards to your questions, it is my personal opinion that women ought to wear female, feminine clothing… which is modest and appealing to her husband. In my case that means dresses and skirts (though at this time I have been unable to afford to do this exclusively, I am learning to sew to solve this problem.) Regarding voting, I don’t see any reason wh woman should not be able to vote, scripturally speaking, however, if I were not allowed to vote, I would trust my husband to make the wise decision. So I hardly see how it matters. Ride a bicycle? Never considered if it were appropriate… my husband would say it is fine, so i suppose I will stand by him.
Mrs. Meg Logan
p.s. Leticia, we have our own home and do not rent. (though there is a mortgage)
Mrs Meg Logan
I used to get a subscription to Crowned With Silver magazine, and they addressed issues like the questions I asked…I remember raising my eyebrows at the bicycle riding one…but so many things used to be considered unladylike, including attending college, that I thought it would be fun to throw them all out there.
MInTheGap–I’d say your one long post was a success! Can’t wait for tomorrow’s!
Amy over at Humble Musings has an interesting post in regards to finances and financial independance. In a nutshell she says that there are two ways with which to aid the family economy. One is through providing more income, but the other is more radical and that’s controlling expenses. She boils it down to “staying home and practicing contentment.” It’s radical, but it works.
As to what women should wear, did you know that there are more verses in the Bible about men wearing skirts than women? In any case, I’m certain that the styles of dress that abound today for women seek to glorify one thing– and that’s not their natural femininity.
Personally, I think that voting should go back to land owners and those with a stake in the game. I don’t believe in universal voting and trying to get uninformed people to the polls to flick a lever for a candidate that happens to be attached to a party. I believe this doesn’t serve America well, and I believe a majority of Americans don’t look past the title of who the candidate is but just look at the party that puts the person forward. That being said, I wonder just how many women vote for whomever their husband votes for, or are swayed by something other than substantial facts.
I hope no one misunderstood my postings. I do believe that family is important. There SHOULD be 2 parents raising children. Wives SHOULD submit to thier Christian, God-fearing husbands, but my point is everyone doesn’t have that option. So what do you do then? Nothing? My father isn’t alive. I have no brothers. I have no husband because he decided he didn’t want a family anymore. It’s just my son and I. And I do EVERYTHING I can to be there for him. I won’t take a fulltime job JUST so I can be there to pick him up from school. I’m in school full time so that I can make a better life for us. I’d LOVE to be a full time mom for my son, but there is no way. Yeah, if I had a husband with an income then, maybe. But not with it being just me. I work to feed him. That’s because I love him. If I decided to sit at home on welfare, then I’d be wrong there too, huh? I LOVE my son and he knows that by how hard I try to get him the things he needs. My actions will teach him that you have to work for the things you want. I teach him that it’s his job to take care of me just like I take care of him. He WILL know to take care of his wife, because I teach him that NOW. Not everyone who isn’t at home full time NOT teaching thier boys how to treat a woman. He sees me working and he wants to work to help. He’s only 8. I talk to God EVERYDAY about my situation. He’s leading me and making it so that I’m able to make it with less money. I answer to God and I KNOW he’s behind my decision to take care of my son. I just get tired of people juding me as less than an ideal mom because I’m a single parent. That wasn’t MY decision.
Oh Rachel, I thought you were married, if you are without a husband then I am sorry to hear of your plight.
Are you divorced or widowed? The church is commanded to care for the fatherless and the widow… so they ought to be helping you (though I realize that these days it is very hard to find a church who would do this.) You are in a tough position and I agree that you are doing the best that you can do.
I wasn’t trying to imply that you are a bad mother. And of course I misunderstood your situation.
Truth be told I don’t know what to do for mother’s with kids whose father left them or whose father passed away, now if she left him, well… there are very few reasons to do that scripturally speaking… and in my personal opinion, it would take a HUGE ordeal to make me leave my man, even if he were aweful, because I would hate to be in your situation.
Peace in the Process,
Mrs. Meg Logan
MInTheGap, that is a fantastic idea about voting. Makes perfect sense to me. Then we wouldn’t have all these crazy illegal aliens thinking they have the right to vote too! That is a whole crazy mess.
Mrs. Meg Logan
This goes to one of the other problems that I’ve seen in our culture– the government taking the place of the churches. Mrs. Meg Logan mentioned that the church should be there for Rachel– and they should– but the church has (to some extent) ceeded this ground to the government (local, state and federal). They donate to an area food pantry instead of running their own kitchen. They don’t budget to take care of the poor because there is welfare and food stamps. They don’t worry about the widows because there’s social security.
And if you ask a church “Shouldn’t you be doing these things?” They respond with “Well, the government is doing them, so why should we do them too when they can do it more efficiently?” My response is, “Because we’re the ones with the Gospel.”
hah, PRECISELY
(and on a side note, my new church has all kinds of outreach ministries, and heck I didn’t know what I was missing before! but now I know and I’m not going back! Now there is a place to REALLY serve.)
Mrs Meg Logan
All interesting comments to say the least, but aren’t we missing comments from one of the usuals to this site??
Mary brought it to my attention that my post had been linked to. minthegap-thanks for including me.
I suppose its about time I stick my nose in here. I felt the post was very well put and as you can well guess I agreed with all of it.
Its so unfortunate what we have done to ourselves. God ment for the world to be peacefully perfect. If only we could’ve been content. Rachel-I’m sorry your husband has left you. Yes, that was wrong of him. However,just because he made a mistake doesn’t leave you outside of the box. You are not the exception for God. No, I can’t tell you what God’s plan for you is, but I can tell you where the plan is written. Look in the Bible and study what the Word has to say about what divorced women should do. It does say. If I remember correctly you are allowed to remary if your husband left you. Women are the weaker sex according to God, I don’t care what Joyce Meyer says. I’ve listened to her tapes and even went to see her in concert. I know what she teaches. She is wrong! Right from the very fact that she thinks she is a preacher is against God’s Word. Stop listening to what she says and look into it yourself. Because women are weaker, God wants us to have an authority over us. The best thing, in my opinion and what I believe the Bible says, would be for you to remary. Pray that God will send you a better man, a man that will take care of you and your son. Also, pray that when He sends you this great guy that you will be the helpmeet he deserves. Get a copy of “Created To Be His Helpmeet” and prepare to be a Godly wife. All you have to do is hope, have faith, and ask. Believe me I know those are hard things to get by, we wish to guard our hearts from pain and disappointment. Once you do though, you’ll be glad you did.
I believe that if someone is unsaved and has left you, you do have the option for remarriage. However, I don’t believe that option is open when both partners profess Christ. Then you fall into the case where remarriage would be committing adultery.
If a man deserts his wife is he a Christian? How many people sitting in church are Christian? Do men hold each other accountable? You’re asking the woman to bear the full responsibility for the actions of a deserting husband. And if the wife is the problem, has the “Christian” man been the spiritual leader in the home?
As a man I’ve been around too many men to believe in the pat formula you suggest for “married” men and women. Honky Tonk Angels ==> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKleTa94dC8. Infidelity is not the only way man can be unfaithful to his wife. If he constantly demeans her at every turn would hurt a wife just as much. In such cases I’ve advised women not to take back their husbands. And don’t tell me about talking to the “Christian” man about how he treats his wife. Cry Me a River ==> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkD_kYkRk3c
JW Worcester recently posted…Empathy is from God
I would believe that a Christian man or woman would be follow 1 Corinthians 7, and seeking for harmony instead, and that neither would leave. More than 50% of divorces are initiated by women, rather than men deserting his wife. I think it’s wrong to cast all the blame on divorce or separation on the man, especially in a society that constantly tells women that they are the better, more virtuous sex, and that if something it’s working, it’s the man’s fault. Which is what you’re implying.
Marriages take two, not one.
Well, I stand corrected.
How do I get that awful avatar face changed?
Well, the general answer is that you have to post 10 times then you get a link that lets you change it… but hopefully by the time you see this comment, I’ll have changed it to the one you use on your blog…
Thanks so much. No more cave man face for me.
I hope you don’t mind but I’ld like to add you to my blogroll.
I’d be honored to join your blogroll– thanks!
I’m totally in agreement with Bethanie!
Well, Mrs. Logan I do hear what you are saying, however in our case, we truly cannot live on one income. I have had two major surgeries, my son has two and my husband has had two motorcyle accidents and required a lot of therapy, etc. We have hospitals bills, regular bills, etc.
Before you say anything, we did the charity application and we still owe thousands.
Please remember that some of use don’t have a choice, including single mothers.
I’m glad for all of the comments. I wouldn’t mind marrying again ONE DAY!LOL But for now, I’ll just concentrate on school…and you know something? It’s interesting that you all mentioned the church being a place of help. I lost my apt in a fire back in April and it never got put out in church. My deacon family helped me, but when they went to take it to the “mother” it stopped there…it was never announced so that I could maybe get donations or anything…I never pressed it because I had bigger concerns, but I think the problem was “chain of command”. In the old days if you wanted to tell the pastor something you could just tell him. In alot of churches now, you can’t do that anymore. That’s what happened in my situation. I had to tell my deacon family and rely on them to notify the “mother” who’d then notify the pastor and then he’d do what he saw fit. I have no idea if it ever even got to him… Church has changed. It’s all so politicall now.
It’s political, and when you’re in a big church it can get to be impersonal. I’m glad to be in a smaller church where you can both talk to the pastor and the deacon and it’s easy to get to know new people and be known by people.
Leticia, I see that you are one of the few who are TRULY in a position where they are unable to be a single family income, and through no fault of your own… people in your situation are few and far between, but there are many who claim they just “cant” make it on one income…. but who could if they tried.
Thank you for sharing your situation and not seeming angry with me. I suppose in my eagerness to express myself, I didn’t take into consideration that you may have some REAL extenuating circumstances, and I didn’t even take the time to ask. Forgive me for jumping to conclusions. I was wrong…
I hope that the Lord will bless you and keep you.
In His Abiding Love,
Mrs. Meg Logan
Mrs. Logan, there is nothing to forgive, I have done the same thing many times. Thank you.
Truly interesting posts ;-). Great post MInTheGap.
Great job Mrs. Meg Logan; your husband is truly blessed. I think he has one of the best wives out there. Then again… I’m biased 😉
One little comment, and hopefully it will not incite another riot ;-). At what point does seeking higher education, professional career, or extra income out of “need” put your trust in your own ability instead of God’s ability? By no means am I suggesting that you should do nothing. Ruth did what she needed to do to feed her family, but she did so in the process of actively seeking marriage. Her goal was to get married, but she did what she needed to do to get by. If she had only sought to increase her income abilities, I wonder if she ever would have gotten re-married? God responded to her faith, not her need.
That’s an interesting comment. I would ask whether Paul’s statements in the New Testament that some are gifted the single state to serve God means that there are some that are not supposed to be married so they can give more time to God. Do you think this applies only to men?
Well if we look at Paul’s statement in 1 Corinthians 7:7-9. Verse 7 specifically states “men”. Verse 8 states “unmarried and widows”. However, if you take a look at the greek, “unmarried” is masculine plural, aka does not apply to women.
As a result we have a statement to men, and widows to not remarry if they can keep themselves pure. Even in the case of widows, young widows are to remarry (1 Timothy 5:14). As a result I would state its pretty clear that Paul’s statements about not marrying are directed to male’s.
Do I think this means that God will NEVER ask a woman not to marry? Definitely not. There is nothing that I know of that states that a woman HAS to marry. However if they are not married, there are several passages that state that they should live in their fathers household (even young widows until they marry 1 Timothy 5:4 for one). Which makes sense when you take the anology of a man being the “head” of a woman. A whole bunch of headless individuals does not sound that productive for Christ ;-), as a result it makes sense for them to join re-join the households of their fathers. (This further makes sense as the “weaker vessel”).
There are certainly no references I can come across where women are asked to be producers of income or work outside the home, regardless of the dire econimic circumstances. Since poverty is not a new thing and we have to suppose that a woman could do something to earn income in biblical times, the absense of references to this seems significant to me.
Fascinating. Let me ask this question: If we take these passages literally (as I do), does the Old Testament command for marrying your brother’s widow still come into play? I have believed that it did not, since I believed it expired with the law, but if it is as you suggest– mainly, that a woman needs a male head– then if her husband died she might need to go to a brother, back to her father or to the church?
Sounds very reasonable to me. And I would do those things were I widowed… though the other day while DLOGAN and I were reviewing the scriptures about widows, I believe that in 1 Timothy, it tells the young widow to remarry ONLY A BELIEVER, so if your Brother In Law were willing to marry you but was not a believer then that woudl not be a good idea. Better to return home to your father, and if you are old (over sixty) then the church can care for you… though this is an area that the church is failing in miserably!
Mrs. Meg Logan
Our church is currently trying to minister to a widowed woman that has family that doesn’t totally want to take care of her. We’re also trying to get her to give up her driver’s license– which won’t be that difficult after a very recent aunt.
So, do you think the whole brother thing was just an Israelite tradition (obviously, a brother of an Israelite would have been an Israelite) or something to carry on to the Christian days?
I always found this passage to indicate that there would be some awkwardness between the woman who was the brother’s wife, and the new husband– wow! Talk about strange!
In any case, thanks for the input!
Im sure there would be awkwardness.. LOL… I dont know, is it part of the Law? or is it written as a “cultural thing”…? Does that make it inapplicable? I don’t know… once again, these are tough questions. I know for me I would return home to my father, and wait for him to find me a husband.
MRs. Meg Logan
MintheGap, that is an interesting question. I would have to research it more to say conclusively, however I believe it would no longer apply. Here is my thinking ;-).
The law in the Old Testament for a wife to marry the brother of their deceased husband was about heirs. If you look at Deuteronomy 25:5, you will see that the command is specifically for childless women. Any children that were the result of the union of the wife and her brother-in-law would be the heirs of all that had been the brothers. They would not really “count” as the brother-in-law’s kids. This is why we see a few references of brother-in-law’s being deceitful, and spilling their seed on purpose, rather than fill their obligations to their deceased brother (See Genesis 38:8 for one example). They wanted their own male heirs, not heirs for their brother.
Enter Christ. While many believers understand that Christ died on the cross for their sins, many don’t understand why his dying was able to accomplish this. The whole thing goes back to the covenant that God made with Abraham. He made what was called a “blood covenant”. A blood covenant intertwined families together making them joint heirs and basically inseparable (breaking a blood covenant was a BIG deal). God even literally walked through the blood of a sacrifice, which was the tradition of the day to signify a blood covenant (Genesis 15:17-18). However, the covenant wasn’t complete until there was a sacrifice worthy enough for the union (You could do a whole deep study just on this). When Abraham was willing to sacrifice his only son he opened the door for God to do the same with Christ, who was worthy to be that perfect sacrifice. (Some great parallels here, both sacrifices were on the same mountain, etc, etc).
Anyway, to make a long story short, we become heirs with God when we accept Christ, and literally part of his family. As a result continuing lineage and heirs almost becomes a mute point. Any believer is essentially a brother. As a result many of the purposes and rational for marrying a brother-in-law to continue the lineage is made obsolete by the new covenant.
A cool passage that has a much fuller meaning with this context is Mathew 5:17 “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.”
I knew that Abraham’s willingness to sacrifice Isaac was a type of Christ, I guess I never stopped to think that God would have had Abraham do it as part of the covenant. That’s interesting. It also adds more interesting value to the whole ram/lamb that was a substitute for Isaac. Thanks for that.
I definitely think that there are some rules that no longer apply to us under grace, and this is probably one of them. I’m not sure that in those times the woman with children actually went back to her father, since the family would have to maintain the physical location that the man who died owned– I don’t believe that reverted to the wife’s father?
In any case, Ruth is an interesting exercise in all of this.She left her family to travel with Naomi, found the kinsman redeemer, and he kept the family in line. I take it that the things that we’re discussing did not happen frequently.
Just a thought, is it possible that some women stayed with their fathers in law? With her kids and his grand kids? Then she would still have had a headship too… I think it is important to note, that at that time it was extremely difficult for a woman to live without a man… (today it isn’t as hard) but then, it was hard for her to own land, how would she work? How would she care for her kids AND work?? I just think that they found another man to wed as soon as possible…
Mrs Meg Logan
And your statment points back to the whole reason that we’re in this dilemma– because we’ve broken down the reliance on each other to create something stronger than either one is separately. We’ve tried to make people equal out of justice, but we have– instead– created more problems.
Humanity if left to itself can only produce problems. This stems back to a Godless view man has decided to take.
Okay fine, but what about me. The woman who didn’t attend college had to get a job because the husband didn’t make enough money. Wanted to stay home with the kids. Gave faithful service to my husband for 19 years had the three children and then one day my husband decided I wasn’t enough and left me and our three children for an 18 year old girl? Having a degree would truly help me out now.
That’s definitely a dilemma and my heart goes out to you. Definitely the church should be standing in that gap, and definitely confronting your husband.
Sandi I’ve been thinking about your post for a day now. It bothers me tremendously that there are men out there who fail to even try to do the right thing. I believe strongly that your husband should not have asked you to work regardless of your financial circumstances. If more income was needed he should have sought other employment or taken another job. As he sought God in his endeavors, he would have been met. It might not have been an easy path at first, but he would have been blessed.
In regards to him leaving you for an 18 year old, that%u2019s just sad. Marriage is one of God’s great gifts and it bothers me that he defiled it as such. There will come a day when he has to answer for his actions. While I’m sure it%u2019s not that comforting in the hour you are in now, God’s justice will be served.
What then should you do now? That is definitely the big question. As you’ve heard me post here, I think it%u2019s proper for a woman to move back with their parents until they marry again or are reconciled with their husband. I recognize in today%u2019s day and age that is not always an option (mostly because parents aren’t open to it). At a bare minimum it%u2019s certainly important for you to live close to your father or your brother and have that family support network around you.
I know in times when things are difficult it is easy to think you would be better off “if you only had… “. These limitations are not limitations to God. Every year people who never graduated college become millionaires. There have been many silly ideas that have made millions of dollars (e.g. Pet Rock). There is certainly no reason why God would not help you find something you could do from home to make a decent income and be around your kids. God will respect the integrity of your heart. Your desire to be home with your kids is from Him, and He will honor it. Be faithful and believe and it will come to pass. Don’t be afraid to think about new things you have not done.
Hello folks,
Well, I’m one of those “nonbeliever” types that so many Christians like to attack (I don’t follow anybody’s religion). But I do have an opinion on male-female relationships.
First, I agree that the family, and the male-female relationship generally, in the United States, has been deteriorating horribly for decades, and experience has taught me that feminism is the major contributing factor. I go to work and can actually feel the hostility against me simply for being born male and for not being willing to hide my masculinity. I hear such double-standards about “women are equal”, but I don’t hear the same call for “women are equally responsible”. At least that would be a consistent position, were they to do so. Since I work in education, I see the strong feminist influence in how our kids are taught every day, and I pity these poor kids.
There has been more than one article in newspapers around the United States about how “guys aren’t asking us out like they used to.” One local newspaper (the Washington Post) had such an article not too long ago. Very shortly thereafter, that same paper had another article about how the sexuality of girls and women is not sharply defined by gender preference. The article was basically glorifying lesbianism and bisexuality in a way that said “we don’t need boys, boys suck”. Couple that with the “rape hysteria” that I see at colleges and even high schools that basically implies that all “males” are rapist threats, not to mention that false rape allegations (oh yes, they exist) are treated as “he’s guilty even after proven innocent.” Well, it’s no wonder guys aren’t asking them out like years ago! After decades of being told that I’m not wanted or needed by the American woman, I, too, got the message and stopped pursuing relationships with them.
Thank goodness I lived in Europe for a few years! It was a real eye-opener; folks there seem to be much better balanced overall. Several years ago, I asked a German married couple, “aren’t men and women supposed to be equals?” Their answer: “Zey are of equal importance, but no, zey are not equals. Zey are complements.” That statement made so much sense to me the instant that I heard it, and I believe it to this day. Getting a date was never a problem for me in Europe, and women seemed to *want* to actually be feminine. I understand why more American men are looking at foreign women, and I don’t blame them one bit. I myself probably will end up marrying a foreigner.
To those of you ladies of the United States–of any religious choice–who respect men, I salute you. I wish more were like you.
Why must women marry? I understand that in the bible it states once they are married they are supposed to submit to their husbands, but why can’t a woman go out on her own with God as her guide and never marry? Why is the only option you are giving her is to find a man and bear his children?
I don’t know that we’ve argued that a woman must get married. I know that Meg said that she believed that if a woman did not get married than she was still under the headship of her father. I would argue that, to some extent, as long as the children are in their parents’ house they are under the parents’ authority– and I would think it would be interesting to have a discussion about just where a child’s allegiance must be placed if not just in God.
Personally, I’m not totally in the camp that a woman living apart from her family has a responsibility of her parents, but I can see that point of view.
I stumbled across this post, and had some comments on this topic of women working, getting married, etc.
I see that most articles and posts on Christian singleness assume that singles are purposely delaying marriage and avoiding its responsibilities. This is simply untrue for many, many singles who love the Lord.
Please remember that Paul completely allowed for singleness within Christ’s church and said that those who chose singleness are able to devote their lives fully to the Lord without having to be concerned about how to please a husband. That is Scripture! The OT law also gave both men and women the opportunity to take the Nazarite vow to serve the Lord without spouse or children. If the Lord says this is acceptable and good, who can rightly say otherwise?
Also please remember that not everyone has been ASKED to marry someone! I myself am a 35-yr-old woman who has never been asked by a CHRISTIAN man for marriage. The Lord has not seen fit to marry me to anyone yet – although I have given my life to Him for whatever He chooses. I have had this before Him for quite some time now, and He has chosen to put me in a circumstance that is completely opposite! He has put me in a job where I do make a very good salary and where I am the only female. I do not love my job (I am ready to leave this salary and job the minute He directs me elsewhere!) But this is where He has me at the moment. This is where I have to lean only on Him to love me and sustain me.
The comments that say women have usurped the male world of career are contrary to what I see daily at work. It is still a man’s world out there. Women in my industry make on average $20,000 less per year for the same job. They are still treated with less respect and still suffer sexual harrassment.
I would just ask that my fellow lovers of Christ would view single Christian men and women with love and compassion – and realize that most of them deeply desire nothing more than to find a godly mate. We too are covered by the precious blood of Christ. And the Lord has His servants in many situations that we can not immediately understand.
Many single Christians are deeply hurt by the isolation they feel in the church. They feel as if others think they are worthless if they are unmarried – which only intensifies their hurt that no has “chosen” them yet. What comfort we take that Christ has chosen us! What are they to do if they are female and single? Not work? That seems irresponsible. Not use the brains that God has given them for the specific task He has called them to and prepared them for (often through college education)?
On another note, there are an awful lot of Christian men out there whose motives are the SAME as non-Christian men – sex without commitment. They just don’t come out and say it as bluntly as non-Christian men. I know many godly single women who have given up dating entirely for this reason.
And finally, many of the posts here seem motivated by the desire to do what men want (“Men are looking for women who…”, etc.) As I see it, our goal as women should not be to become what men want, but what the Lord wants. If that is our goal, then a godly man will be blessed by us.
May the Lord be glorified in us, His people!
I’ve seen another way that women create weak men. In ministry I remember a couple who came to the Pro-Life Crisis Pregnancy Center where I volunteered. Their precious innocent daughter had gotten pregnant. But it was easy to see the mother was suffocating and domineering. The husband had virtually no role in his daughter’s life. His wife said she didn’t trust him with her daughter. And his wife answered all our questions for him.
Another man in our church spent two hours with me once and told me that was the most time he had ever spent with another male all the way back through school. His background was he had been dominated by his mother (unmarried) and four other women among his relatives.
This does happen. Sometimes it’s women that step into the vacuum created by a weak man, and sometimes it’s a strong willed woman. We really are doing poorly in our churches in terms of living life together. We don’t mentor, we don’t hold people accountable, and we’re all weaker for it.